Enter the FMCs – Daemonkin Rules Conundrum #2

daemonkin walpaper

Wouldn’t it be nice if those flying monstrous creatures came into play gliding so they can assault on their next turn? Turns out that may be possible, come see.

According to the new Daemonkin book, Blood Tithe triggers at the beginning of the Chaos players turn (p.110 Daemonkin), so Daemon Princes or Bloodthirsters received from the Blood Tithe appear at that time. Now if you look in the main rule book (page 17) it clarifies that effects that happen at the start of the turn are resolved BEFORE the movement phase.

start of turn

The rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures (p.68) indicate that you can change your flight mode at the start of the movement phase which we’ve established is after said units arrive via Deep Strike from the Blood Tithe.

Under Deep Strike (p. 162) it states in the middle column halfway down that ‘Deep Striking Units can not move any further…’ so they apparently still get a movement phase however, can NOT benefit form normal movement therein (i.e. ‘move any further’).  From that line of thought it seems like you are still allowed to change the flight mode of a FMC because that unit still gets it’s movement phase.

bloodthirster box

So diving even further down the rabbit hole, any FMC held in reserve arriving via Deep Strike (Deep Strike Reserve) comes in at the beginning of the turn, also before the movement phase begins, and theoretically can also change flight modes as well. Talking to you Flying Hive Tyrants, and Nurgle/ Tzeentch Princes!

(Keep in mind too that both modes allow you to run after Deep Stirke- either one or two D6’s depending on if the unit was Swooping or Gliding).

That seems to indicate that if you receive a new Daemon Price via Dark Apotheosis (or a Bloodthirster) that you can bring it in Gliding so that it may charge on it’s next turn.  Furthermore it also seems to apply to all FMC’s arriving from Deep Strike Reserve in general?

Seems like this ability makes the Daemonkin a tad bit stronger IMHO. Splash in some icons and you may have a Khorne daemon making machine!

What do YOU think? 

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  • Buck

    Checks with chart.

  • Angel Llera

    This ‘conondrum’ applies to all units arriving via Deep Strike. Because Deeps Strike doesn’t happen at the beginning of the Movement phase, like it should, rather at the beginning of the Turn, which is a different phase.

  • tabyrd

    I don’t think you can get around the main rule for FMC: “A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.


    • Price

      I agree

    • car_tag

      This wouldn’t be coming in as deployed at start, from reserve, or from deep strike reserve. This is a one off scenario given the wording of the Blood Tithe summoning rules.

      • tabyrd

        Just looked closer at the wording and it is indeed slightly different than summoning. However if you take it one step forward and deepstrike a bt in gliding mode and mishap. What happens then? You go into ongoing reserves and now have to come in swooping??

        • car_tag

          You wouldn’t deep strike into gliding mode.

          1. At start of turn use Blood Tithe to turn character into Bloodthirster.
          2. Bloodthirster is placed and scatters as per normal (we’ll assume no mishap here), it is in Swooping mode.
          3. Movement phase begins, Bloodthirster changes to Gliding.

          If there was a mishap in number 2 you’d roll on the mishap table I would assume.

  • The problem is that you’re making the wrong argument. Yes, when a FMC enters the game from Deep Strike Reserves, it must swoop, no getting around that. BUT, summoning a greater daemon through use of Blood Tithe does not have it enter play from Deep Strike RESERVES.

    People keep messing this up, when a unit is deep striking and in reserves, yes, it is called Deep Strike Reserves. There are MANY instances of GW using the Deep Strike rule for units that are not in reserves (Veil of Darkness, Gate of Infinity, Skies of Blood, etc.), as well as many where they explicitly mention Deep Strike Reserves (Planet Strike Objectives, BA Decent of Angels Warlord Trait, etc.).

    They are 2 very different things, and GW uses them carefully. Just because you’re using the Deep Strike rules does not mean you are arriving by Deep Strike Reserves.

    • N

      The very first paragraph of the deep strike rules explicitly says deep strike necessitates reserves, references the reserves rule page and even mentions deep strike is “sometimes called deep strike reserves”.
      Maybe it’s just you messing it up?
      Is there any other rules instance to indicate that there are indeed two kinds of deep strike and a blood tithe Bloodthirster, Veil, gate etc. should be immune to interceptor, while teleporting terminators or a daemonology bloodthirster isn’t?
      According to your interpretation, what flight mode does a deep striking FMC use before changing flight modes at the start of his move? none? How does he then interact with being deployed over other models?
      you are overcomplicating things, and it is not even necessary: “arriving” in swooping mode does not prevent a summoned BT to change flight modes at the start of his deep strike “move” – BECAUSE deep strike is a variant of “moving” onto the table from reserves (pg 135).

      • TerrorCraft Official

        Well, if deep strike and deep strike reserves were synonymous, as you are implying:

        A) there would be no need to say “Sometimes called deepstrike reserve”, it would instead say “Or called Deepstrike Reserves” or alternatively “Is synonimous with Deepstrike Reserves”. Saying “sometimes” implies it is not always the case.

        B) Some rules that deepstrike are very clearly not deepstrike reserves, as it would break the mechanics of the units that deepstrike without mention of reserves(eg., deathmarks would gain their “hunters from hyperspace” ability trigger, which happens when coming in “from reserves” every time they use a veil or ghostwalk mantle to redeploy, despite that those pieces of wargear operate via deepstrike without being deepstrike reserve. By your logic, they would be arriving from reserves every time they deepstrike with the mantle or veil, and could wound their targetted unit on a 2+ for several turns in a row because of it.

        The vast majority of (if not all) tournaments I have heard of rule against the veil/mantle deepstrikes being from reserves, so I see no reason why this shouldn’t be ruled the same way until an FAQ comes out.

        Another thing to support the separation of the 2 terms, is that for units summoned via conjuration spells, it states that they are summoned from deepstrike reserve, and are treated as coming from reserves for all rules purposes. The omission of that stipulation in this case seems deliberate, as they clearly have no issue specifying what sort of deepstrike a unit is making when it is relevant.

        • N

          A) If they weren’t synonymous, they could not even sometimes be used as such, could they?
          B) yes, hunter from hyperspace is triggered with every deep strike and in turn triggers interceptor. I actually don’t see the problem with this.
          Btw, the newest edition of Codex: Necrons gave the Veil the “regular” deep strike rule, too – why should teleporting from reserves and from somewhere on the board be treated differently?
          Thirdly, omission of something in a special application of a rule is not a problem when that something is part of the rule in general – or: not a yes does not equal a no.

          • TerrorCraft Official

            A) Circumstances could make them synonymous. If a unit from deepstrike reserves has to follow the rules for deepstrike, that doesn;t mean any unit deepstriking has to be considered from deepstrike reserve.

            B) To put a simple answer to your question, reserves and units deepstriking from the board should be treated differently because they are different. Reserves are clearly defined in the book as a unit starting outside the game, while a unit on the board is in the game. Very black and white.

            Not a yes doesn’t equal no, but not a yes certainly doesn’t equal yes, as you are implying, either.

            I think this is a matter of deciding what to do until an FAQ comes out, and is a matter of people deciding which side of the conflicting rules they are on.

            There are arguments for both sides, which is why GW will have to say something eventually.

          • N

            A) if the deep strike rule per se necessitates reserves, it isn’t necessary to repeat this in every instance.
            B) you are arguing that the are different because they are different. This is a logical fallacy called a petitio principii. If you can’t prove why they are different, you should rethink your opinion that they are.

          • TerrorCraft Official

            A) Deep Strike doesn’t necessitate reserves, which is why there are units that deepstrike, and units that come from deepstrike reserves.
            B) My proof that they are different is that they are referred to differently. If they weren;t different, there would be no need for 2 separate terms. Additionally, that isn’t evidence of them being the same, either, which is why this is such a back and forth debate in general (more clarification is needed from GW).

      • As I said on my site, there is no Deep Strike Reserves rule, all that Deep Strike Reserves does is allow you to refer to a unit that is arriving by deep strike, and also from reserves, by a shorter name.

        If you look through their publications, GW consistently refers to Deep Strike Reserve, when you know that they’re referring to a unit that is arriving by deep strike and also from reserves, such as the Descent of Angels warlord trait (BA), Locator Beacons, Teleport Homers, Rites of Teleportation (GK), Deathmarks Hunters from Hyperspace, various Planet Strike objectives, and many more.

        The fact that they are so careful to use it when they mean it, and when describing things like the Veil of Darkness, Grav-chute Insertion, and Skies of Bloods, they don’t call it Deep Strike Reserves, it’s pretty painfully clear that GW knows the distinction and uses them distinctly.

        • N

          you repeat your opinion, but still haven’t provided a singular proof that any of these cases exclude reserves.

          • You’re right, nor can you disprove that changing my underpants daily keeps me from being struck by meteors. But I change them every day and I haven’t been hit yet.

            All we can do is look at how they use the phrase Deep Strike Reserves throughout all their publications, and how it consistently aligns what appears to be their intention, and make the best decision that we can. I can’t find one place where they use the words “deep strike” in a vacuum but it clearly meant only when coming from Reserves while Deep Striking. GW has actually done a great job using Deep Strike Reserves when they mean Deep Striking from Reserves (though occasionally they do say Deep Strike, then further add and also from Reserves, which would be entirely redundant if you were correct).

  • Sam

    Just loved at my copy of the rule book and p 68 states “at the start of its move” NOT movement phase. Since anything using deep strike counts as having already moved you can’t change modes until next turn. Personally I think it’s horrible that it works that way but until it’s changed that’s how it reads.

    • Sam

      Sorry looked at my copy

      • N

        I don’t think it says you can’t change modes from the mode you arrive in. I think it only says you keep the mode you declare at the start of your move (e.g. moving onto the board via DS, which happens after arriving) until the start of your next turn.

  • Camden Poole

    Spikey, Please post a photo of the rules for Blood Tithe. If you want this argument to objective then we need all the facts.

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